An Irish Genealogy Trip Back to County Cork (#837)

In this special episode we choose one of our Green Room members (see more about the Green Room here) and accompany them on a genealogical trip back to County Cork.

Cathy Abraham lives in Boston, USA and her great-grandparents arrived there in the 1870s from County Cork. They were Timothy O’Callaghan and Ellen Richardson. The story went that Timothy was a poor farm-hand on Ellen’s parents farm just outside Cork City. They eloped to America as Ellen’s parents did not approve of a match between them.

Cathy was keen to dig a little more in this story as well as finding and visiting the places associated with the Richardson and O’Callaghan families back in Ireland.

So, we decided to get involved! We commissioned Pam Holland (one of our Green Room genealogists) to research the couple and their families – and then produce a report.

And she found out some really interesting facts!

So, join us as we accompany Cathy to some of the places mentioned in that report in County Cork – we think you’ll enjoy coming along for the ride!

You can listen to the show on your computer/smartphone by clicking on the play button above (the triangle with the circle around it). You can also download the show onto your computer by clicking on the download symbol. Enjoy!

Transcript:

Mike Collins:
Hello everybody, this is Mike here, and just before we get started into today’s show, I want to give you a little bit of an orientation. You see, today’s show is a genealogy feature, in which we take one of our Green Room members, and we look at their very particular ancestors and where they came from, in this case in County Cork, and we actually look at some of the actual places where the ancestors lived, where they were baptized, where they were married, and so on. So you’re going to hear a few things through this particular episode. You’re going to hear the surname Richardson, you’re going to hear the surname Callahan, and you’re going to hear a place name like Carrigrohane and County Cork.

So, the subject of today’s show is a lady called Cathy Abraham, who comes from Boston in the USA, and the people we’re going to be looking at, her ancestors, were the Callahans and the Richardsons from County Cork. And apparently, the story goes, the story that Cathy actually said to us, was that her Timothy O’Callahan and her Ellen Richardson got married in Boston roundabout 1871. However, they both came from the same farm in County Cork, where apparently, Timothy was a farmhand. And Ellen, Ellen Richardson, was actually the daughter of the farm, and it’s a very well-to-do farm, as well, as around 80 acres or thereabouts. So, the story was he was the poor farmhand, she was the wealthy farm owner’s daughter, or farm tenant’s daughter. And the two of them had to elope to get married in the USA. Now, we’re not quite sure how much truth was in that. In other words, Cathy wasn’t sure.

So, what we decided to do was, seen as Cathy was coming back to County Cork, we got the story, we got our Green Room genealogist in the USA involved, Pam Holland, we got her to do the research, come up with a genealogist report, suggest places to go, and basically that’s what kicks off this particular episode. So, over the course of this podcast, we’re going to look into the story of Timothy Callahan and Ellen Richardson and their parents back in County Cork, the place they came from. And we’re going to see just how much truth, I suppose, was in those particular stories. And we’re going to visit the places with Cathy Abraham mentioned in the report. So that’s it, orientation over, and now on with the show.

Mike Collins:
Hello everybody, and you’re very welcome to The Letter from Ireland show. I’m Mike Collins.

Carina Collins:
And I’m Carina Collins, and it’s wonderful to be here with you today, Mike.

Mike Collins:
Yes, the two of us chatting about a very, very interesting topic. But before we move on to the topic of today’s show, Carina, how are you doing today?

Carina Collins:
I’m doing fantastic. A little cooler, because we’ve just come off the back of a mini heatwave here in Cork on scene.

Mike Collins:
And we’re talking about September, folks, can you believe that?

Carina Collins:
It’s been very unusual, but we’ve grabbed those last few rays of the summer, an Indian summer, I think, and today it’s cooler and I think everybody’s breathing a little sigh of relief around here, Mike.

Mike Collins:
There is that, isn’t there? Today’s show, Carina is a genealogy trip back to County Cork. Now, pray tell, can you give us a little bit of insight as to what is inside today’s show?

Carina Collins:
Homelands feature, really, is what we’re up to, which is a trip into a particular homelands of one of our Green Room member’s ancestors. So this homeland is going to be County Cork, as you say. And County Cork is very dear to us, Mike, of course, because we both live here-

Mike Collins:
And near.

Carina Collins:
And near. And in the feature we look, if possible, we try to find the home of the ancestor, and maybe where they worked, a little bit about their life, the church they frequented, perhaps where their family were baptized, married, and maybe, if we’re lucky, we might find a burial stone and the burial place of that ancestor.

Mike Collins:
So yeah, it’s one of those things that, I suppose, Carina, we’ve been doing this inside the Green Room for the best part of, I don’t know, 10 years almost at this point? Featuring various members and, I suppose, putting the focus on different counties around Ireland. But if you haven’t come across this before, folks, Carina just outlined the sorts of things that people are particularly interested in as they start to find the county of origin for their Irish ancestors. But the way we’re actually going to structure today is we’re going to actually get one of our professional genealogists to take the information from one of our Green Room members, and that’s Cathy Abraham from Boston in the USA. Hi there, Cathy. And she then is going to go away with that information, do the research, and compile a genealogist report. That’s about right so far?

Carina Collins:
Perfect. And the genealogist report is really a guide for us as we do our search.

Mike Collins:
That’s exactly it. So, we then take that report, and we use it, as Carina says, like a guide literally to map out all the stops that we want to go to. And we start knocking on doors, we start turning over stones, pardon the expression, because many of them are in graveyards, so we don’t turn those ones over. But we basically start to find out more and more and more, and we go to the places that are mentioned in the genealogist report. Now, just to say that this is a very, very special one. I mentioned a lady called Cathy Abraham from Boston in the USA being the subject of today’s report. And why is this one special, Carina?

Carina Collins:
Well, because Cathy came and visited us here in County Cork.

Mike Collins:
Which is very unusual.

Carina Collins:
It is quite unusual for us to have the subject here with us on the search. So that made it very special as we went around to those different places to connect with her ancestors, very special indeed.

Mike Collins:
So, here’s what we’re going to do today. We’re going to take you with us, folks, as we actually kick off this entire project and have a chat with our genealogist in the first place. And the genealogist is going to go off and do the report, and then we’re going to have a very, very brief look at the report. We’ll introduce you to Cathy, and she’ll have a chat about just who her County Cork ancestors were. They have the surnames Richardson and Callahan, and they left Ireland about the 1870s. And then we’re going to ask her, “Well, where do you want to go?” And she’ll mention a few places like, let’s say, the farm that they were born and brought up in. She’s going to mention the church, where their folks might’ve been married, baptized, that sort of thing, and ideally, place where they were buried. So, there’s a few different things in there, and I’m looking forward to this, Carina, are you?

Carina Collins:
Absolutely. It’s always fun to do these on the ground searches.

Mike Collins:
And you know, Carina, what I find is to be the best idea is always start at the beginning. And the beginning, in this case, we’re going to go over now, straight away, to a little church outside County Cork, where we actually believe, I think this is last spring or so, and we managed to get our Pam Holland, our Green Room genealogist, standing outside the church chatting with yourself about this particular project, and just how she felt about it, and how she’s going to approach it. So, over to yourself and Pam Holland, outside Ovens Church.

Carina Collins:
Welcome, Pam, to Ovens, and to St. John the Baptist Church, which is the beginning of our journey, I think, on another Homelands feature. And this time, we are going to be on the search for Cathy Abraham, who is a member of our Green Room, for some of her family. And we start here at this font. Now, this is the font that would originally have been in the church, but they’ve moved it out here out front for us, so that’s really nice that they’ve kept it. And I have special memories, actually, of this water font myself, before we get onto Cathy’s family, because this would’ve been the area where I would’ve grown up. So who knows, there could be an overlap there with Cathy Abraham, and this would’ve been where I was baptized and my father before him. So Pam, we’re looking forward to you experiencing this area before you do a report for us, a genealogist report on Cathy Abraham. So, what’s it like to be in situ, as they say, before you start that report?

Pam Holland:
It’s just fascinating being here, and soaking up the atmosphere, and seeing how close things were. When you’re looking at them on paper sometimes, you feel like the distances are much greater than they really are. So just to see how close the houses are, the locality, how close-knit the community probably was.

Carina Collins:
Yes, you have the church here. Across the way, you’ve got the parish priest’s house, the school was up just beside, so everything was almost in the one triangle, and it has been that way. And the church here dates to 1831. What were the dates that you were looking at for Cathy’s O’Callahan family?

Pam Holland:
They would’ve been born in the 1840s, so the church would definitely have been here then.

Carina Collins:
And this would’ve been possibly the font that they would’ve used as well-

Pam Holland:
Yes, yes, definitely, yes.

Carina Collins:
… if this was the baptismal font. So, that’s going to be very interesting, isn’t it? Now that we can start here. And what are you going to do for us with the genealogist report?

Pam Holland:
We’ll be looking at, of course, the church records, the baptism records for the family, and seeing if we could find the area that they lived in, the particular townland in this area. Looking at Griffith’s Valuation and any other land records that might be available from the time, and just trying to place them in a time and place.

Carina Collins:
That’s going to be really interesting. I’m going to follow this one, I think, very carefully because it’s, as they say, in my hometown. So Pam, it’s wonderful to have you here in Ireland with us, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your stay.

Pam Holland:
Thank you. Thank you so much.

Mike Collins:
And so the journey began, Carina. And Pam went back to the States, and she spent a number of months, in fact, speaking with Cathy, going through some of the facts, doing the research, and eventually producing her genealogist report. And I have a copy of that in front of me just now.

Carina Collins:
I’m dying to find out, Mike, what are you going to say about that? What were the findings in that report?

Mike Collins:
Yeah, it’s a very interesting one actually, because Cathy, like an awful lot of people, has been, I suppose, thinking about her Richardson and Callahan ancestors in a particular way for many, many years. And a lot of what she got was informed by Ancestry.com*, and I think unsubstantiated facts were actually placed in a lot of other people’s trees as well around this particular couple. But the major finding was Pam went into quite a bit of detail, and she discovered that, in fact, Cathy and a number of other people she was familiar with, some relatives, were actually barking up the wrong tree all along.

Carina Collins:
So they had the wrong family?

Mike Collins:
Luckily enough, they had the right county, because that’s what we’re doing here today.

Carina Collins:
Yes.

Mike Collins:
Luckily enough, they have, of course, the right couple that actually arrived in the States. But what they were wrong about was the specific place and the specific parents, in other words, her great-great-grandparents, from which the couple came.

Carina Collins:
An easy mistake to make sometimes for people, I guess.

Mike Collins:
An easy conclusion to jump to incorrectly if the research isn’t really looked at. But Pam is a very diligent and, I think, a very detail-focus orientated person, and she spent quite a bit of time double-checking both DNA matches as well as actually looking at the records. And once she actually presented that main finding, especially, back to Cathy, Cathy, of course, was in a bit of shock. When you find out what you thought was true all along wasn’t quite true after all. But Pam stuck to her guns and showed just what her reasoning was, and she turned out to be absolutely correct.

Carina Collins:
And this was with regard to the Richardson side of Cathy’s family?

Mike Collins:
Yeah. So essentially, there’s a Richardson, Richardson’s farm, that we’re going to be looking at. But the point is that up to now, they’d all thought, the folks in the States and Cathy’s family and so on, that it was one maybe a few miles up the road from the actual one, the correct one.

Carina Collins:
So, a different farm and a different house.

Mike Collins:
Correct. Oh my gosh, it’s so good to have a professional genealogist on your side when you’re doing this sort of thing. So what we saw there basically, Carina, was that Cathy essentially wanted to actually discover a number of things from the report, and she wanted to figure out, Timothy Callahan on our Callahan side and Ellen Richardson, the couple who actually arrived in the States, where were they born? So obviously, it was really essential to uncover that fact in the first place, the new discovery. She wants to know about their parents, where they lived and, ideally, where they were buried, if they’re still buried in Ireland. Where is the Richardson farm, and are there any relatives still living? And, I suppose, are they willing to see her as well?
So she had all those questions on her mind as she spoke with Pam. And Pam actually uncovered, I think, a fair chunk of what Cathy was looking for. And she basically, as I said, because she discovered the correct farm, everything else fell into place. Whereas if she stuck with the original, presumed farm, it would’ve been a whole different set of discoveries.

Carina Collins:
And incorrect.

Mike Collins:
Basically, yeah, incorrect. Would you believe that? So, we have that, and we’re looking through it, and we’ve been looking through it for a while, obviously Carina, because we got it a number of weeks ago, but I think we spoke to a number of people once we discovered the right farm, we knew the area and so on. And we have a little bit of color to introduce just now, folks, because we spoke to one of our neighbors, a man called… Well, if he lived in the States, he’d be called Denis Mahony, would that be right? But here in Ireland, he’s known as Denny Manny because that’s what we call him. And Denny Manny, the reason I actually mentioned that, is because Denny actually was brought up on a cottage at the corner of the particular farm that we’re going to be visiting. So he was a font of wisdom with regards life in the times, some of the neighbors, how life was like and so on. And we chatted to Cathy later about all of this.

But I’m going to introduce you to Denny now, because we had a chat, and we recorded that particular chat, and he’s talking about his grandfather who lived on the same farm that Cathy is going to be visiting back to. And also how his grandfather was actually a great lure for people like the Archbishop of Cork, and various dignitaries from the local university to go in and chat with, would you believe? And that’s the subject of this particular conversation. But really, folks, what I really want you to focus in on is have a listen to Denny’s accent, because that was the accent of the time especially, and it hasn’t changed very much, let’s say, for his generation. Further generations, like yourself, Carina, are very poshly voiced now at this stage. But Denny has his own way of speaking. So, I think we’ll just switch over to that now, Carina, how’s that sound?

Carina Collins:
Yes, and I love listening to Denny because he gives us a flavor of that part of County Cork, and it reminds me a bit of my own father, actually. So let’s have a listen to Denny.

Mike Collins:
Okay.
We’ll start again now. So this is in the cottage, talking again about… And the Bishop, yeah?

Dinny Mahony:
This the old cottage [inaudible 00:16:05] cottage [inaudible 00:16:07].

Mike Collins:
Yeah.

Dinny Mahony:
And once a month, the Bishop Lucey of Cork would come out, two theology professors inside the university would come out, and they’d be debating with the grandfather. Jesus Christ, you know? Like you were saying, the grandfather believing like that. You read out the book, which says you must also believe it, the Christianity, but-

Mike Collins:
This is on the Richardson… The cottage now, was on the Richardson farm?

Dinny Mahony:
Yeah,

Mike Collins:
Yeah?

Dinny Mahony:
Yes, yes. And the father said to me Dinny..

Mike Collins:
And that became the Kenefick’s Farm. Yes.

Dinny Mahony:
Come on away we’ll walk down the road, we went on about 100 yards without a word being mentioned, and he stopped then. He said, “Dinny aren’t we blessed the two of us. How do you make that out Da?” “Aren’t we lucky he said, “Listen to that gang above, there now. Aren’t we lucky, he said that we’re illiterate and alive.” I’ve always studied them things and it made fierce sense.

Mike Collins:
I know. I know. That’s a good thing to say, isn’t it?

Dinny Mahony:
“Honest to God, “aren’t we lucky,” he said, “we’re illiterate and alive.” That was it then.

Mike Collins:
Yeah, yeah.
And there we have Dinny O’Mahony with the accent of the time, Carina. I reckon it was just about accurate back in the 1870s as it is for now as well. A local man who lived on the Richardson farm, folks, that we’re actually going to be visiting in the not so distant future in this podcast. So Carina, what next?

Carina Collins:
Well, Mike, Cathy received her report, and decided to visit us here in Ireland and County Cork. And I asked her what she thought of the report, and what she would like to do next, and here is what she had to say.
Welcome, Cathy Abraham, to County Cork.

Cathy Abraham:
Thanks, Carina.

Carina Collins:
How does it feel to be here a few fields away from where your ancestors lived here?

Cathy Abraham:
It’s been a long time coming, but I’m so happy to be here. I can’t wait to see all there is to see.

Carina Collins:
You’re very welcome. And you’ve brought the good weather with you, which is fantastic.

Cathy Abraham:
Bit too warm though.

Carina Collins:
I know. Nobody’s ever said that about Ireland! I see you’ve got a report there, Cathy, a genealogist report from Pam Holland, who is our genealogist in the Green Room. And any surprises there for you or how has that gone for you?

Cathy Abraham:
Yeah, there were a few surprises, but the main one was who I thought were my great-great-grandparents really weren’t my great-great-grandparents, sorry. So when I read it, my mouth just dropped open. I was so surprised.

Carina Collins:
That can happen, can’t it?

Cathy Abraham:
Yeah.

Carina Collins:
When you go digging back along, you just never know what you’re going to find.

Cathy Abraham:
Absolutely.

Carina Collins:
Now, were there any places in particular on the report that you’d like to visit, that you’d like to see, that you’re here in County Cork and the land of your ancestors?

Cathy Abraham:
I definitely want to see the farm that they owned, or if it’s still there, or the land that may still be there. I’d like to see where my great-grandfather was baptized in Ovens. That’s the Callahan side. The farm belonged to the Richardson side. And the Richardson children were baptized in Cork city. So we want to go, I’d like to go to the church today to see where they were baptized.

Carina Collins:
So, if we make a start, where should we go first, Cathy? Your choice.

Cathy Abraham:
I’d like to go to the farm first.

Carina Collins:
That sounds like a great place to start. Why don’t we try that? So let’s start, and let’s make a start and go to the farm.

Cathy Abraham:
Okay.

Carina Collins:
Come along with me.

Cathy Abraham:
Great. Looking forward to it.

Carina Collins:
So, Cathy was all fired up, Mike, but I know we have to follow a plan when we’re on these road trips in search of people’s ancestors. So, where were we off to, and what was our plan of action going into the future?

Mike Collins:
As you just said there, Carina, the first stop was going to be the farmhouse. And let me just say, folks, that when we’re out and about on these sort of trips, there’s often a few question marks, because we just don’t know how we’re going to be received in different places. And one of the places we’re very conscious of, actually, is going into people’s homes and knocking on the doors and saying, “Hello, you don’t know us, but we have somebody here and they’d like to see the place where their ancestors came from.” And what we discover, Carina, is in Ireland, certainly, sometimes that’s actually a very difficult thing to organize in advance, for all sorts of reasons. But often, if you just drop in spontaneously on the day, you’re actually received with open arms. It’s quite a peculiar thing. So, for that very reason, what we wanted to do was go to the farm, the very first thing, just to see how we’re going to be received, so we’ll come back to that in just a few moments. So, step one was to go to that particular farmhouse, the Richardson Farmhouse in Carrigrohane, County Cork.

Following that, then, we’re going to go to a graveyard just up the road. It’s maybe about five miles up the road from the farmhouse, or even less, actually, actually it’s only about two. And potentially, that’s where Cathy was going to uncover some grave markers, gravestones, for her Richardson ancestors. Then we’re going to actually go into St. Mary’s Cathedral in Cork, where our genealogist, Pam, had discovered was the place where Ellen Richardson was actually baptized. So again, a really nice place to bring Cathy to make that connection. Then we’re going to switch from the Richardson side to the Callahan side, and we’re going to go back to a place called Ovens, where he came from, and look at the place where he would’ve been baptized and potentially the place he lived. A place called Lisheen, Lisheen Fields and so on. So, Carina, there’s a very, I suppose, particular sequence of things there, but maybe we start off by going to the farm. So, we did this just a few short days ago and we were successful, but would you want to maybe just chat about-

Carina Collins:
I guess-

Mike Collins:
Some of the-

Carina Collins:
… our persistence is what made us successful at the farm. So, all of this takes place, really, within a five to eight mile radius. Everything that we’ve mentioned there, all those places, are all in a quite close circle. So the farm in Carrigrohane is at the end of what we call Clash Road. Now, we’re familiar with the road, but we arrived at the farm-

Mike Collins:
Just to say, Carina, by the way, as well. We discovered this, through Pam’s showing us Griffith’s Valuations, the exact locations, the super imposition on the modern map. So we knew exactly where we were going, and we pretty much knew it was the right place, as well.

Carina Collins:
That helped us a lot, because if you’re rocking up to somebody’s door and ringing the doorbell, you really do want to have your facts together with you. So we knew this was where we wanted to be. However, there was no answer at the door, and it looked very much like it was a very closed area. Now, a working farm-

Mike Collins:
Very secure as well, which is kind of unusual. There was a couple of gates, and they were locked, and we couldn’t get in.

Carina Collins:
Yeah, so a very secure farm. And this might be unusual in some parts of Ireland, but we are near the city and we’re near a very big roadway. And so it wasn’t that unusual. However, we could hear noise from one of the outbuildings at the back. In fact, the very building that we think might have been Cathy’s ancestors’ home. However, nobody could hear us, so we continued to shout and shout.

Mike Collins:
I think it was about 15 minutes of roaring and shouting over the sound of clanking of steel and things being hammered and so on.

Carina Collins:
Yeah.

Mike Collins:
And eventually…

Carina Collins:
Eventually, a gentleman came out. So, we waved at him and he came up to the gate, and he must’ve been wondering what we were up to, but our persistence paid off. He took off his earmuffs, which he was wearing, and he was listening to music, so there was no way he heard us, but we really did want to speak to him. And he was a delightful man. His name was Tom Murphy. He was now the owner of the farm.

Mike Collins:
And, by the way as well, the work that Pam did showed a very, very distinct line of ownership from the Richardsons onto another family called the Keneficks, and to this man’s grandparents, called Murphys, there back in the 1950s. So, we knew that there was a Murphys in the farm, and he just happened to be the main man of the moment.

Carina Collins:
So, he opened the gate and let us in!

Mike Collins:
And then we discovered, just behind the more modern house, there was an old barn probably used over many, many years to feed cattle as much as anything, but it looked like a very nice, preserved, old long house that at one stage probably was, and in fact turned out to be, an actual dwelling. In fact, it was the dwelling that was the original farmhouse for the Richardsons, and it was the place where Cathy’s Ellen Richardson had lived her early life; was born, her siblings were there, her parents, and so on. And we had Cathy standing right beside the actual house itself, Carina, and I noticed, in the video we shot, she had a hand on the house and she almost had her other hand on her heart at the same time as she spoke the following words.

Carina Collins:
Cathy, where is this place, and why is it special to you?

Cathy Abraham:
It’s so special to me, I can’t believe that I’m here. We’re at the original Richardson farm here in Carrigrohane off the Clash Road in County Cork. And this was the original house that my great-grandparents owned and my great-grandfather grew up in. We met the current owner, and he’s been very friendly, and he’s going to hopefully find the original title for the land. So I’m just totally shocked and surprised. It’s so wonderful. I don’t know what to say.

Carina Collins:
You’re tearing up here. I don’t don’t know if it’s the sun or the emotional side?

Cathy Abraham:
I think it’s a little bit of both!

Carina Collins:
Oh, how wonderful. And I think Tom is going to let us see what’s inside, and just to get the feeling of walking in the place that your great-grandmother lived, how wonderful is that?

Cathy Abraham:
Yeah, it’s amazing. And now it’s a cattle farm, but I guess back in the day when they farmed it was probably grains of some sort. So yeah, this is really amazing. I’m so happy to be here.

Carina Collins:
Wonderful. So, why don’t we try and see what’s inside?

Cathy Abraham:
Okay, sounds good to me.

Carina Collins:
Lovely.

Mike Collins:
Carina, that was a real find for Cathy, wasn’t it? So lucky for us as well to find her Richardsons place, the farm, the house, and gain access to it. Wonderful.

Carina Collins:
Everything just worked out, really. The fact that somebody was home as well is a big plus.

Mike Collins:
So, that was our first stop in our plan. And one of the things when Pam did her genealogist report that we didn’t get was the final resting places for some of these Richardsons and Callahans in Ireland. But one of the things we actually do quite a lot is we find that going to a local graveyard and literally just kind of poking amongst the gravestones starts to provide some very interesting information. In fact, often if we go to a place on a genealogical search, we start with the graveyard, because there, often, on the stone is more people, relationships, facts, dates, and so on, which actually inform the rest of our search.
So, what we decided to do in this case, Carina, if I remember rightly, is we headed just a little bit up the road to a Church of Ireland, that’s a Protestant church yard, St. Peter’s. Now, let me explain. Although Cathy’s folks were Roman Catholic, so your Richardsons and Callahans, it was the way back in the 1700s, right into the 1800s that often in the actual, well, all the graveyards at the time, you could say were actually Church of Ireland. But Catholics were buried on one side of the path or one section, and Protestants in another. So you tended to have mixed graveyards, like so. So, we actually went into this particular one, St. Peter’s, a beautiful, beautiful graveyard, really just looking around to see what we might see, and see if there are any Richardsons. And we came across one particular stone, and here you are with Cathy talking about that particular stone with a Richardson on it, and a little bit of a surprise as well.

Carina Collins:
We’re here in a lovely little church, aren’t we, Cathy?

Cathy Abraham:
Yeah.

Carina Collins:
In the graveyard in Carrigrohane, County Cork, just a few miles down the road from the Richardson Farm. And what have we found here that’s of interest to you?

Cathy Abraham:
We came here looking for gravestones of either Richardsons or Callahans, and we actually found this one, which is the grave of…

Carina Collins:
A Richardson.

Cathy Abraham:
Joseph Richardson, sorry, I forgot the first name already. Joseph Richardson and his wife Margaret Richardson with a death date of 1824. But then further down, even though it’s kind of hard to read, we also see that it’s the grave of a James Callahan. He was 78 years old when he died. And so this is adding fuel to the fire, shall I say, because were the Richardsons and the Callahans connected at some point in time prior to my great-grandparents, what I found about?

Carina Collins:
So you’re finding maybe an older connection back further in the family line now between the Richardsons and the Callahans?

Cathy Abraham:
Absolutely.

Carina Collins:
And what a magnificent stone it is, as well.

Cathy Abraham:
I know, it is.

Carina Collins:
And the early date up here was early 1824. So it’s been standing a long time, and in very good condition as well.

Cathy Abraham:
Did the size of the stone give any indication as to the wealth of the family?

Carina Collins:
It usually did.

Cathy Abraham:
Okay.

Carina Collins:
Yeah, because if somebody was very poor, they may only have had a tiny stone as a marker. So the bigger the stone and the more detail on it, yes.

Cathy Abraham:
So this is-

Carina Collins:
And the fact that it’s very close to the church door.

Cathy Abraham:
Oh, really? Oh, I didn’t realize that.

Carina Collins:
That’s a good thing too.

Cathy Abraham:
Right.

Carina Collins:
So we’ve lots more to see here.

Cathy Abraham:
And lots more to learn.

Carina Collins:
Mm-hmm.

Mike Collins:
I’ve often said that one of the best things you can do, Carina, is just get in on the ground. And one of the best places you can go is, in fact, to a cemetery, because you’ll often start to see relationships that you never realized were in place before. And there we have an example.

Carina Collins:
Of course, seeing the Callahan surname pop out… Well, not exactly pop out. We had to read that stone very carefully. We tried to do some rubbings, and I think it was easier, wasn’t it, just going to the side and squinting at the stone?

Mike Collins:
I think we squinted very well, actually. Cathy was very happy with our combined squinting, in any case. And just to remind folks there, that the information that was presented by Cathy to our genealogist, Pam Holland, was that her folks kind of got together for the first time, the Richardsons and the Callahans, sometime in the 1860s or ’70s, and married in the 1870s in Boston. And the story was that Timothy Callahan worked on the farm of the Richardsons at the time, and was a bit of a rich man, poor man type situation. But it kind of appears there may have been something going on between the two families going back way before that. And Cathy’s now discovering that, because she’s here on the ground, and looking at things, and asking questions. Now, we don’t have any answers, but now she has a lead that she needs to do something about good into the future.

Carina Collins:
I think she was very interested when she saw the Callahan surname appear on that Richardson stone in St. Peter’s in Carrigrohane. And it is an avenue for her now to further explore in the Green Room.

Mike Collins:
So the next stop that we’re going to take is we’re going to continue with the Richardson line, and we’re going to head into Cork city, because one of the things that Pam Holland uncovered was that the Richardson family in general were all baptized in a place called St. Mary and Anne’s Cathedral, or what we call the North Cathedral there, in the north side of Cork city. So, we all hopped in the car and went in there, and took our time. It was quite quiet at the time, which is great. I think there was a wedding being prepared. But in walking into the actual cathedral itself, beautiful, beautiful space, but what really caught our eye was the baptismal font.

Carina Collins:
Of course, we went there to see the baptismal font, not realizing that it gets pride of place in that cathedral. Just inside the door, sunken into the ground, surrounded with beautiful tiling and even a red rope; there, in the center, was the font.

Mike Collins:
So, here you are, chatting with Cathy, and her feelings with regards to what she’s looking at.

Carina Collins:
Cathy, welcome to the north side of Cork city. And here we are at St. Mary’s Cathedral, and what a magnificent building it is. And this is a special building, and this is a special font in your family.

Cathy Abraham:
Yes, it is. This is the font where my great-grandmother, Ellen Richardson, was baptized, along with her siblings. They actually lived five miles down the road in Carrigrohane, but they came into Cork to have the children baptized.

Carina Collins:
So they came in here to the city, into the cathedral to have the baptism. And I can see why, because we’ve been to many churches and cathedrals. But look at the way this font is presented here. You come in the door, it’s got its red rope around it. It’s just fantastic. So would you like to maybe light a candle here? I see there are several places, Cathy, to light a candle here.

Cathy Abraham:
I would love to, I would love to. This is so beautiful. The marble in it, it’s just gorgeous. I can’t imagine.

Carina Collins:
It does give you goosebumps to think-

Cathy Abraham:
It does.

Carina Collins:
… that the same one is here all this time, doesn’t it?

Cathy Abraham:
Right, yeah.

Carina Collins:
Yeah. Let’s do that.

Cathy Abraham:
Okay.

Carina Collins:
So let’s light that candle for the Richardson family.

Cathy Abraham:
Sounds great.

Carina Collins:
Let’s see if we can find somewhere over here for the camera.

Cathy Abraham:
All right.

Carina Collins:
See, you’re right, there’s several candles if you have a favorite saint there.

Cathy Abraham:
Saint Finbar

Carina Collins:
Yeah.

Cathy Abraham:
I like the virgin Mary.

Mike Collins:
So, I guess, Carina, for the purpose of this podcast at least, that was the end of looking down the Richardson line. Now, there’s a lot more that we’ll include in the Homelands features for use of people inside the Green Room. But we’re going to switch now to the other side of the two people. In other words, we had the Richardsons there, and now we have the Callahans.

Carina Collins:
So, onto Timothy Callahan.

Mike Collins:
Timothy Callahan. So, Timothy Callahan, Pam found out, that was a little bit more obscure. Basically because, I guess, just to put it straight, it looked like, through the records, that the Callahan, maybe, are poorer and have less land to their name, and therefore were just tougher to figure out exactly where they were. But Pam did a great job, as far as I’m concerned, and she discovered that Timothy Callahan and his siblings, first of all, they actually lived in a place called Lisheens, which wasn’t far from the Richardson farm at all. But just to say as well that we headed out to Lisheens, and the very specific spot is now covered by a housing estate.

Carina Collins:
But you did discover some little thing linked to Lisheens, didn’t you, Mike? The plaque on the wall.

Mike Collins:
Yeah, that was Lisheens house was still there. Is that what you mean, yeah?

Carina Collins:
Yeah. So we did know we were in the right place, for sure. And even that old stone was enough, I think, to give Cathy the link back to the Lisheens connection.

Mike Collins:
I think that’s what you face, really, where you’re doing your genealogy back in Ireland. Sometimes you’re lucky, and you’re in the middle of a rural part of Ireland; things haven’t changed much. But often when you’re close to the city, there’s a lot of development. There’s rich land. And, as in this case, we found that particular section of land was, in fact, covered by a housing estate. Now, we went there, we took pictures, we walked around, but we didn’t include it in this.

But for the final, I suppose we say final, but for the place that we really wanted to go to, with regards the actual O’Callahan side, was back to Ovens Church. And you might remember, folks, way back in the beginning of this podcast, seems like a bit of time ago now, we had Pam, our genealogist, standing outside this church with Carina, and she was talking about how she was going to take on genealogy report, and it looked like the O’Callahans came from, or were baptized in that particular place. And so it turned out. So, what we did with Cathy next was we took a trip to Ovens Church to the place where her Timothy Callahan was baptized, probably out and about around sometime in the 1840s, or thereabouts. So here we have Carina and Cathy.

Carina Collins:
We’re here, Cathy, in Ovens, County Cork, just eight miles outside the city, at St. John the Baptist Church. And this has special significance for you, I know. Why do you think that? Can you tell us?

Cathy Abraham:
Because my great-grandfather was baptized here, and all of his siblings were baptized here.

Carina Collins:
And they were the…

Cathy Abraham:
Callahans.

Carina Collins:
Callahans.

Cathy Abraham:
Yeah, Timothy Callahan. And he immigrated to Boston, Massachusetts in 1870. But I was so excited to learn that Pam found out where they were baptized, because we didn’t know. So, this is really, really nice to be here.

Carina Collins:
And it’s lovely to have you, because you know who else was baptized here? I was.

Cathy Abraham:
That’s nice!

Carina Collins:
So, this is the font, and it was here since 1831, as well.

Cathy Abraham:
Yeah, I saw that. It’s amazing. Why do you think they moved it out here?

Carina Collins:
Well, they have a newer one. We have a very famous sculpted piece inside in the church, and I’ll show you that later. So, maybe we’ll go in and light a candle for your family here, Cathy, now that you’ve come back after those many generations.

Cathy Abraham:
I would love to do that.

Carina Collins:
Let’s do that. Cathy, we really like, when we come to a church that a family has been associated with, to light a candle in their memory. So, would you like to light a candle for the Richardsons and the Callahan family-

Cathy Abraham:
Yes, I would like to do that.

Carina Collins:
… now that you have made that journey back here to Ovens and County Cork?

Cathy Abraham:
Yes, I would love to do that.

Carina Collins:
And we’ll keep their memory alive in this church.
Lighting the candle to the Callahan family there in Ovens was a special moment, I think, for Cathy.

Mike Collins:
And I love the fact that you mentioned the Richardsons and the actual Callahans together just at that moment in time.

Carina Collins:
Yes. And when we stepped out, she noted that, on the font, the date was 1831, and she was delighted to know that that was the font that her ancestors would’ve been baptized in. And it is nice to see a church still in operation from 1831 looking quite similar, because it was a solidly built limestone with sandstone church. So, yeah, it was very nice to be there with Cathy at that time.

Mike Collins:
Absolutely. And just to point out, folks, as well, a lot of people might know this, but if you are in, certainly the 26 counties in the Republic of Ireland, most Roman Catholic churches are actually open right through the day. Most Church of Irelands aren’t, and they’re closed up. We won’t go into the reasons for all that, but from the point of view of actually just wandering in and taking your time and looking around, if it’s a Roman Catholic church, the chances are you’re going to be able to have access at any time.

Carina Collins:
And quite often you’ll find somebody in the church that you can chat to. As happened a few times when we were there in both churches, Mike, actually-

Mike Collins:
That’s true.

Carina Collins:
… in the cathedral and in Ovens Church.

Mike Collins:
That is so true. And I suppose, Carina, that brings it, for the purpose again of this podcast, somewhat to an end with regards to the places we planned to go. There’s a lot more to share, as I said, in the eventual Green Room feature, the Homelands feature itself. But we want to give everybody a flavor of the sequence of things that might happen with regards a person’s idea of reaching back to their home place in Ireland, from wherever they might be in the world, and then perhaps getting involved with a genealogist to substantiate some details, so you could actually really come up with, “Yeah, that’s a place, that’s a place, and that’s a place that I feel I can visit.”

And from our point of view, when we help people, almost always, we end up actually combining the idea of final resting places, the places where a person is baptized or married, and indeed, where somebody lived and sometimes where they worked as well, if it’s a separate place. They are places, a lot of which you can actually visit today. And so it was with Cathy in this stage, in this particular case.

So, we’re going to go back to Cathy for a final time. And before Cathy actually left us, we took her back outside and Carina asked her, just having seen what she’s seen and visited the places, how does she feel about her visit to the places of her ancestors in Ireland at this point in time? And here’s what she had to say.

Carina Collins:
Cathy, we’ve come to the end of your adventure here on the Homelands feature in County Cork. And it’s certainly been a surprising and action-filled few days, hasn’t it?

Cathy Abraham:
It really has. It’s been wonderful.

Carina Collins:
And looking back now over the last few days, we’ve been making a few discoveries, but there’s also been some surprises along the way. And what has stayed with you, maybe, that you’ve experienced over the time that you’d like to share with us?

Cathy Abraham:
I think the one thing that I’ll always remember and keep with me and share with my family, of course, and my cousins, is that I actually was on the farm where my great-grandparents worked and toiled to make a living. And seeing their home that was, at the time, that’s still standing, that was very emotional for me, and I’m still getting emotional about it. I can’t even explain how I feel about it, because it was just…

Carina Collins:
Visceral.

Cathy Abraham:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. It was so wonderful. Yeah, that will always stay with me. And the other thing that I really loved was seeing the baptismal font in St. Mary’s Cathedral in Cork.

Carina Collins:
Oh, wow.

Cathy Abraham:
Because my great-grandmother was baptized there, but it was such a beautiful font. Oh my gosh.

Carina Collins:
The marble?

Cathy Abraham:
The work in the marble and-

Carina Collins:
Yeah, it was.

Cathy Abraham:
… the detail on it. Oh my gosh, it was just so beautiful, so, so beautiful.

Carina Collins:
And they’re still, obviously, very proud of that in the cathedral in north Cork because they’ve got a rope around it and it’s in central place, isn’t it? In the cathedral.

Cathy Abraham:
Right, as soon as you walk in the door, it’s right there. It’s just so beautiful and it hits you. It’s like, “Wow, look at that.”

Carina Collins:
I know you’re going back home and you’re going to be discovering some more things yourself, but you’ve got so much now to take back with you.

Cathy Abraham:
Absolutely.

Carina Collins:
And, I think, the feel of the place as well, going back with you.

Cathy Abraham:
Oh yeah, yeah.

Carina Collins:
Yeah.

Cathy Abraham:
Yeah, I’m going to have to really think about it, and be able to describe it to my family. I just…

Carina Collins:
Great.

Cathy Abraham:
It’ll be wonderful.

Carina Collins:
And your holiday continues!

Cathy Abraham:
It does!

Carina Collins:
Because you’re off to Cobh and then to somewhere down in Kerry. And you’re going to have a wonderful time, Cathy.

Cathy Abraham:
Yeah, and we’ll have a wonderful trip. I’m really looking forward to just taking my time and getting the feel for the land.

Carina Collins:
It’s been a pleasure for Mike and myself as well, because Mike’s behind the camera there all the time. He’s with us throughout this adventure. And for us, having a person that we’re featuring on the Homeland here in Ireland with us, that makes all the difference to us. So thank you for coming, and thank you for being such a good guest, and we look forward to seeing you again sometime soon.

Cathy Abraham:
Oh, I hope so. And I can’t thank the both of you enough, and Pam as well, for everything that you’ve done for me. The appreciation is very deep here.

Carina Collins:
Oh, you’re very welcome. As we say in Irish, míle Fáilte
Cathy Abraham
 Thank you so much.
You’re welcome.
So Cathy, I think, managed to cover most of her list, her wishlist there, for coming to County Cork.

Mike Collins:
That is true.

Carina Collins:
And one of the things that we maybe didn’t mention or highlight was the fact that she also has a link, she was saying, “I would like to know if I have some living relatives here in County Cork.” And when we were speaking to the owner of the Richardson Farm, now of course it’s belonged to Tom Murphy, he did mention that there may be some relatives that Cathy can follow up with, second, third cousins, who now live near Cork Airport. So there was another lead for her to follow on. And I think Cathy has really done well on this trip.

Mike Collins:
There you go. I think that’s the thing, Carina, isn’t it? Because Pam helped her to discover, very solidly, just which line were her Richardsons in Cork. And that’s beyond any doubt now. So that’s great. And hanging off that, as you say, she discovered a number of different things, but also a number of questions, vis-a-vis things she found out in the graveyards and so on. Extra, I suppose, kind of possibilities that we didn’t go through during the podcast. And of course, the living relatives.

Carina Collins:
Yeah. And I think, Mike, one of the really lasting memories that stays with me, and even when I followed my own family line, is the powerful effect it has on you when you are walking, literally, in the footsteps of your ancestors, and you are there on the land that they lived and worked in, and you are still, in Ireland here, you still are lucky enough that you can go around a lot of the places that existed then and still do.

Mike Collins:
That’s for sure. And it’s a thing we promote very much in the Green Room, in a sense that, fair enough, you can actually gather all the records you wish, you can actually get the right dates at the beginning and the end. But in some ways, as our other genealogist says, Jayne McGarvey, it’s the dash between the numbers; that it’s really about the life that people lived, and where they lived at, and the places they walked. So, we go out and we encourage people to discover as much as possible. And folks, just to say as well, if you are interested, if you’re not in already, you would like to join us in the Green Room and see how Cathy’s story, as well as, I think we’ve probably about 20 other stories just like it, extensive Homeland features and lots and lots of other things in there as well.

Carina Collins:
Throughout the counties of Ireland.

Mike Collins:
Throughout. But how her story turns out, you’ll find out in there. But hopefully this particular podcast episode gives you flavor for just one person, and actually having their genealogy trip back to County Cork. But it’s not just about a genealogy trip. I think it’s a very kind of soulful thing to do, Carina, isn’t it?

Carina Collins:
Yeah.

Mike Collins:
It’s a connective thing.

Carina Collins:
And it was our pleasure to go and do that soulful journey with Cathy, and we wish her all the luck going forward as she continues her research. And I know she was making notes every night after our visits to different places. So she’s a diligent researcher, and the best of luck to her in the future.

Mike Collins:
Absolutely. The best of luck to you, Cathy. And that’s going to wrap it up for this week’s special genealogy episode. I hope you enjoyed a slightly different thing this week. As ever, we really, really, really, really appreciate if you could leave a comment or two, or a review, on whatever platform you might be on, in the comment section, or if you’re on Apple podcast or in Spotify or whatever, we’d love to hear what you think of this podcast, and this particular podcast episode. So, for now, that’s it from me, Mike Collins.

Carina Collins:
And from me, Slán go fóill from from Carina.

Mike Collins:
Yeah, until we chat again next week.

The Letter from Ireland Show is a weekly podcast that goes out each Thursday from our cottage in County Cork. Tune in to this episode – and dive straight in to a bit of Irish caint, ceóil agus craic (conversation, music and craic!).

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